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Department of Computer Science and Engineering
Box 1045
One Brookings Drive
Washington University in St. Louis
St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
314.935.6102(msg) 314.935.7302(fax)
r.p.loui@gmail.com
Full CV in pdf
Short Non-academic CV in pdf
urls
stl
sch
Ronald P. Loui
Formerly Associate Professor of Computer Science and Engineering
        
Email is r.p.loui@gmail.com. Please note that loui@cs.wustl.edu, loui@cse.wustl.edu, and loui@ai.wustl.edu are deprecated!
NEWS
My new Myers-Briggs Personality Test is in beta test, which you are
welcome to try here... comments (and deep linking) welcome!
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Professor Loui was on sabbatical during the 07-08 year, volunteering
on the Obama campaign (knocking, walking, phoning, busing, blogging,
buying, publishing, emailing, facebooking, interviewing, rallying,
donating, reading, writing, rebutting, researching, webposting,
wikipedaeing, commenting, pin wearing, flag flying, JoeBidenning,
journalist armtwisting, Ohio relocating, cafe chatting, pin distributing,
bookgifting, hornhonking, signposting, smiling, thinking, believing,
and proudly standing in some very long lines! i.e., just like all the
rest of us).
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Currently I am a full-time consultant for Cycorp in Austin, TX,
on loan to the Heart and Vascular Institute at Cleveland Clinic working
on natural language interfaces to semantic web databases in health care
IT, intelligence, and government.
My next big personal project might just be an urban center for UNIX excellence
here in Cleveland, or an interactive egov site that just does all the IT/DB things that
the government will be hemming and hawing about doing in the next four years.
Prof. Loui and Prof. Lockwood (now at Stanford) recently completed
a contract with SAIC and intelligence agencies developing datamining
hardware for internet interventions. While you may have read about
similar projects, ours had constant legal oversight and was considered
by Congress a project too important to terminate.
The company we spun out, GV, was just named Missouri
Technology Company of the Year, 2008 (and best start-up a few years
back).
Congratulations to former intern Scott Hassan for finally getting his
due recognition for having written the google prototype, backrub,
for fellow Stanford MS students Brin and Page (for example here).
Scott got his python from Steve Cousins who mentored him at the Wash U
medical libraries group, and I am proud to say I pulled his resume from
the pile and placed him in that group with Professor Frisse. I tried my
best to get Scott's "unsung-hero" story out there in last month's IEEE
Computer article on scripting.
Also congratulations
to Avie Tevanian, recently CTO of Apple, my fellow grad student at
Rochester, who wrote or supervised the development of all of Apple's
operating systems since, well, the NeXt days. See, for example, here.
Avie is finally leaving Apple, and the company will sadly be a lesser
place. We buy stock in Apple because of its stable OS, not because of
the iPhone or iTunes.
To those who would like Larry Summers' brilliance at
Treasury without his bull-in-a-china-shop personality, how about Brad DeLong? Brad co-authored half of
his mentor's academic career. Brad is considered just as brilliant as
Summers, except that he is better received by his peers. Brad has been
preparing himself for Secretary of Treasury since childhood. Brad was
even one step away from the position when the Clinton administration
ended. He might have been Hillary's top pick, but he was a very early
public supporter of Obama. Brad probably has paid all his taxes,
too.
To a future US Executive CTO:
Some of the obvious
priorities would be to support Treasury, homeland security, defense,
and intelligence. The next concerns would be physical infrastructure
and human infrastructure, especially education, energy, and long term
GDP-economic issues. But eventually the legacy would be creating
egovernment that is worthy of our democratic traditions. In 100 years,
no one will remember search engines and browsers as a big deal, but
people will be talking about how we used those technologies to improve
access, deliberation, trust, and oversight to perfect our political
institutions. Have a close look at the technologies in AI and Law,
where better government use of IT has always been envisioned. HTML,
Semantic Web, search engines, and bottom-up interfaces to government all
have roots in AI and Law research. Also consider the reestablishment of
a UNIX center of excellence for national strategic reasons. And consider
a split of the NSF so that engineering research and education are not
hindered by a funding model tailored for science (technology is better
funded as DARPA/ARDA/DTO, but this funding model need not be specific to
defense or intelligence).
A google for government, yes, but also
a youtube for CSPAN, and
a facebook for elected officials and bureaucrats, and
a wikipedia for legislation, and
a public use of wireless spectrum, not just a bunch of placeholders
for future speculation.
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I nominate Avie Tevanian as CTO for the US Government that is,
if Apple doesn't need him back asap... He does not currently have an
insider agenda to advance (we cannot be picking industry winners and
losers with such an appointment). Microsoft would be livid, but it's in no
position to protest these days. Steve Case is also a good CTO prospect,
though one wonders whether he can look out for the country instead of his
investors, first. I am backing Steve Nissen for FDA.
On this
site, find the phrase "We both would like to thank Francois Bar,
Caroline Bradley, Steven Cohen, Joseph Froomkin, Brian
Kahin, Tom Kalil, Ronald P. Loui, Paul Romer,
Steven Cohen, Carl Shapiro, Andrei Shleifer,
Lawrence H. Summers, Hal Varian, Janet Yellen,
and John Zysman for helpful discussions." And even better here,
"We would like to thank Caroline Bradley, Joseph Froomkin, Ronald
P. Loui and Lawrence H. Summers for helpful discussions."
Actually, thank YOU!
A couple more easy Technology and Social Prognostications:
- (Mid-Summer 08) The countries with modern rail systems
will dominate the world economy in 50 years. The watercraft is a
sustainable large-scale infrastructure technology, and so is the rail
network, but commercial aircraft and commuter automobiles are not.
Air superiority will remain a strategic technology, but fewer goods and
people will be transported by air. Individual volitional landcrafts
will have very different scope and infrastructure in the next half
century -- some will be recreational, some for hauling, and some for
special needs commuting. The commercial jet and the multi-purpose
vehicle will one day be remembered like the air balloon and the
horse-drawn buggy.
- (Mid-Summer 08) Local generation of energy will transform the
power grids. Look for small, smart wind, solar, and geothermal systems,
and passive energy design. Every domicile will be responsible for
supplementing centrally distributed power, much like frontiersmen were
responsible for their own water. Smarter architecture will contribute
over 50% of home and commercial energy reduction within 50 years.
Architects are every bit responsible for the energy problems we face,
and architects can easily provide new solutions. Private greenspace
will command a premium in densely populated areas. In 50 years,
water will be a bigger problem than energy.
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Here
it's always nice to see patents from MIT people citing your work 25 years later!
Most prior art methods that operates [sic] on stochastic shortest
paths use adaptive processes ...; few consider minimizing a non-linear
function of the length and only give approximate heuristic processes.
The most relative [sic] method is that of Loui. Loui considers a general
utility function of the path length which is monotone and non-decreasing,
and proves that the expected utility becomes separable into the edge
lengths only when the utility function is linear or exponential. In
that case, the path that maximizes the expected utility can be found
via traditional shortest path process. For general utility functions,
Loui describes a process based on a certain enumeration of paths. --
Nikolova, Evdokia V. EP20070016374 08/21/2007
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I've worked a bit on my late thesis advisor's wikipedia page.
Former students might also find this
SURA/REU page interesting. I had a longer list, but we have to keep
things lean or they will delete.
Connie Ramos is here
letting people order only the hardcover of "Our Friend Barry" these days
(though I did see Target and B&N advertising the softcover).
Remember, we did this mainly for the campaign and for the historical
value, and there were no royalties for authors, no incentives, and no
restrictions from the campaign hq.
I have been posting to comp.lang.awk
lately ... and awk.info has been nice enough to put
some of our 15-year old gawk programs from the Undergraduate AI Lab in their
awk100 repository. Some of the quotes from that site and others who found
"In Praise of Scripting":
"Listen to people who program, not to people who want to tell you how to program." (http://awk.info/?advocacy)
Just a small plug for a nice paper by my favorite CS prof Ronald Loui called In Praise of Scripting. Its getting pimped over at Lambda the Ultimate at the moment. He always wanted us to write our AI assignments in Gawk
:) [thanks, Alex! --RPL] (http://www.nofluffjuststuff.com/blog/alex_miller/2008/08/_in_praise_of_scripting_.html)
The author recommends that scripting, not Java, be taught first, asserting that students should learn to love their own possibilities before they learn to loathe other people's restrictions. (http://www.citeulike.org/user/spl/article/3139338 and http://www.citeulike.org/user/ashwinn/article/3139338 and http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2941)
"But there is emerging consensus in the scripting community that Python is the right choice for freshman programming. Ruby would also be a defensible choice. Python and Ruby have the enviable properties that almost no one dislikes them, and almost everyone respects them. Both languages support a wide variety of programming styles and paradigms and satisfy practitioners and theoreticians equally. Both languages are carefully enough designed that 'correct' programming practices can be demonstrated and high standards of code quality can be enforced. The fact that Google stands by Python is an added motivation for undergraduate majors." (http://www.pythonware.com/daily/2707814520652062882/)
Professor Ronald Loui has an interesting article on the rise of scripting languages (In Praise of Scripting: Real Programming Pragmatism) in the July 2008 issue of IEEE Computer. It claims scripting languages such as Perl, Python, and Javascript have dramatically fulfilled their early promise, provide many benefits, and are poised to take over the lead from Java. However, the academic programming language community is stuck in theory and hasn't recognized the ascendence of scripting languages. (http://arcfn.com/2008_07_01_archive.html)
I enjoyed reading In Praise of Scripting: Real Programming Pragmatism by Ronald P. Loui (complete reference below). Its a high quality text with a lot of perspective. (http://www.soderstrom.se/?p=41)
Early programmers must learn to be creative and inventive, and they need programming tools that support exploration rather than production. (http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog/archives/monthly/2008-07.html)
To me, Java-based CS1 is the single greatest mistake in the history ofcomputing curricula. Students should learn to love their own possibilitiesbefore they learn to loathe other peoples restrictions. (http://gride.googlecode.com/files/lmuziol-teaching-summary.pdf)
As we mentioned earlier, newLISP aims to be a pragmatic, clean and expressive scripting language, though not in the semi-pejorative meaning of 'scripting', but rather as outlined by Ronald Loui in his In Praise of Scripting: Real Programming Projects. [sic] (http://www.osnews.com/story/20728/A_Look_at_newLISP/page2/)
Java-based CS1 is the single greatest mistake in the history of computing curricula. (http://www.csupomona.edu/~bisoroka/website/commonplace.doc)
We use Python as our programming language in CS1 be-
cause it is a syntactically clean, dynamic language that al-
lows students to experiment in a live environment with a
minimum of syntactic difficulties. For a supporting argu-
ment, see [11]. (http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~summetj/papers/summet-sigcse09-Personalizing_cs1_with_robots.pdf)
A recent IEEE Computer
article In Praise of Scripting: Real Programming Pragmatism
recommends scripting, not Java, be taught first, asserting
that students should learn to love their own possibilities
before they learn to loathe other peoples restrictions
and concludes with the observation that an emerging consensus
in the scripting community holds that Python is the
right solution for freshman programming [5]. (http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1508865.1508907&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&type=series&idx=SERIES307&part=series&WantType=Proceedings&title=SIGCSE)
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NOT NEWS
Pragmatics Mantra (Part One) for Programmers
- Easy is not wrong.
- Program by saying simple, normal things.
- Cleanliness is all we ask of syntax and semantics.
- More programming theory does not make better programmers.
- Don't let old/compiler people tell you what language to use.
- Maximize independence: strong fences make good components.
- You can't use a namespace if everyone else has used it as their sewer.
- If there is already a way of doing something, do not invent a harder way.
- Listen to people who program, not to people who want to tell you how to program.
- Ask not what a programming language can do; ask what a programming language can do for you.
(see also the Project Management Advice for students in CS436S Software Engineering Workshop ...)
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Some Obama images: St. Louis campaigner Jen Haro got me close enough
in May to remind him he signed my fifth grade yearbook; Some presidential
signatures with Obama's mixed in; The New York Times keeps printing
our class photo without my permission(!) -- I am in the front row on the
left; A letter from Harvard Law School in 1990; Our AI and Law conference
home page showing Obama as the banquet speaker (see below).
From BObama@XXXXX.XXXX Sat Nov 11 20:04 CST 2000
Received: from imo-d09.mx.XXXXX.XXXX (imo-d09.mx.XXXXX.XXXX [205.188.157.41])
by taumsauk.cs.wustl.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22598
for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:04:37 -0600 (CST)
From: BObama@XXXXX.XXXX
Received: from BObama@XXXXX.XXXX
by imo-d09.mx.XXXXX.XXXX (mail_out_v28.32.) id a.16.4c4cae2 (24899)
for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:04:05 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <16.4c4cae2.273f5495@XXXXX.XXXX>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:04:05 EST
Subject: Re:
To: loui@cs.wustl.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Length: 977
Status: RO
Ron:
Great to hear from you! My students told me you were in town; had I known, I
would have made a point of coming to the discussion.
As for the banquet, I'm flattered by the request. Two concerns. First, the
end of May is typically the end of our legislative session, which means that
I may be tied up in Springfield during the banquet. I won't know the
specific schedule for the year for another month probably. Of course, St.
Louis is only an hour and a half from Springfield, so if I am in session, but
the banquet is during down time for us, I'd be happy to come down.
The other concern is whether you really want to hear from a constitutional
lawyer who is still trying to figure out all these rapid developments in
technology.
Anyway, once you guys have a date, why don't you contact my assistant,
Jennifer Mason, at senobama@XXXXX.XXXX, and we'll see what we can work out.
Your work sounds fascinating, and I look forward to hearing more about.
Barry
(Click here for more of this correspondence.)

Professor Schauer lecturing in place of Barack Obama in the Old
Courthouse where Abraham Lincoln argued for the rights of the rail over
the riverboat, and Dred Scott argued his right to be freed from slavery.
(Actually we wanted Senator Obama in the Old Courthouse first, then
shifted him to banquet speaker, suggesting as topic how technology could
help democratize access to the law and to government. Emeritus Dean
Dorsey Ellis of the Law School was the actual replacement banquet speaker.)
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2007 Presidential Campaign Contributions BY Self-Reported Occupation and Employer
Wikipedia Punahou School People (Short List) snapshot and current version
Wikipedia Punahou School People (Long List) snapshot and current version
Recently teaching:
- CSE100 (Computing Tools, Fall and Spring)
- CSE104 (Web Development, Fall)
- CSE513A (Graduate AI Programming Project, Fall)
- CSE547T (Formal Languages and Automata, Spring)
Visitor hosting in 2006:
Ben Goertzel (3/3)NIH gene-finding investigator and machine cognition guru
David Goldberg (3/4)most cited author in cs (textbook on genetic algorithms)
Lotfi Zadeh (4/21)father of fuzzy logic
Public talks in 2006: UIUC Urbana AIVR (Fall)Olin Women's Graduate Fellowship Conference, Temple Grandin panelist (Fall)JURIX keynote speaker Paris (Winter)Yeshiva NYC Law School conference on graphical presentation of evidence (Winter)UMSL CS (Spring)
From the cell phone:
the sorbonne at night (JURIX)
eiffel tower down the hill (JURIX)
inside the french senat (JURIX)
old lisboa and giraffe (CMSRA)
Recently funded as co-PI on U.S. Government subcontracts with PI Lockwood (now at Stanford), co-PI Pless
Lockwood-Pachos-Moscola-Loui (LPML) collaboration began April 2001 and FPgrep/FPsed notarized August 2001
The LPML patent helped start "the #1 tech startup in St. Louis" according to the RCGA
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If you would like a network appliance that can: |
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Suppress viruses as soon as they are known
Classify and tag spam and spim
Log keyword occurrences in packets
Block, drop, or re-route traffic based on packet contents
Mark up or translate text as it flows by
...all at OC-48 line speed...
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Then Global Velocity has a content-based firewall for you.
They're affordable. Ask your sysadmins why they haven't already bought one.
Disclosure: Prof. Loui and his group have received research funding through Global Velocity in the recent past, for the development of other devices related to national security.
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Papers expected in 2007-2008 (some w/co-authors):
"Study of journal citations for 100 US CS departments"
"Streaming AI: how much intelligence at network speed?"
Papers appearing 2005-2008 (some w/co-authors):
"In praise of scripting"
"High speed identification of language and script"
"Dynamics of rule revision in legislative games"
"Game mechanisms and procedural fairness"
"Citation-based study of Toulmin"
"Mathematical difference between legal & scientific theory formation"
"Hardware accelerated algorithms for semantic processing"
"Information processing at very high ingestion rates"
"Transformation algorithms for data streams"
"A modest proposal for annotating the dialectical state of a dispute"
"Streaming hierarchical clustering for concept mining"
"Sensitivity analysis of gigabit concept mining system"
"Purely probabilistic negotiating agents: pessimism, punishment, and laissez-faire paths"
"Comment on the Cardozo conference"
Well-known work (w/collaborators):
- Mathematical models of argument
- Why not tell the truth about "if ... then ..."?
- Logical models of analogy and precedent
- Why not consider the arguments of past cases?
- Optimal stochastic & multidimensional paths in networks
- Why not assign links random-variables/vectors, then maximize utility?
- Scripting in gawk
- Why not program quickly, effectively, and easily in the language of the unix gods?
- Philosophy of computing / philosophy of AI
- Why aren't games also computations? Aren't bureaucrats robots?
- Interval-models of probability and decision
- Why not build some higher-order robustness into the model?
- Dialogue models of negotiation
- Why not model the process of reaching agreement?
- H.L.A. Hart and defeasibility
- Why not give credit where credit is due?
- Gnu virtual memory optimizations
- Why not copy instead of chasing pointers on disk?
- FPGA hardware for high-throughput AI
- Why not inspect the contents of every packet in the network?
Well-known dissertation students (including co-external):
- Guillermo Simari (D.Sc., 90)
- Mathematical treatment of defeasible reasoning and argument
- Argentina is now known for tango and defeasible argumentation.
- Gadi Pinkas (D.Sc., 92)
- Inference in symmetric connectionist networks
- Everything Pinkas touches: software in the Knesset, his "perfect D.Sc. thesis", & Amdocs, turns gold.
- Gerard Vreeswijk (Ph.D., 93, VU Amsterdam)
- Defeasible reasoning and dialectics
- Vreeswitt is the Wijkgenstein of his generation of Dutch logicians.
- Diana Moore (B.Sc., 96)
- Negotiation and argument
- Parsons-Sierra-Jennings (one of the biggest works in multiagent systems) says to look to Moore.
- Moshe Looks (Ph.D., 07)
- Competent program evolution
- Accelerating genetic programming so it is fast enough to be practical.
Not-Quite-Wiki: Ronald Loui (b. Honolulu, 1961) is an active American
scholar and engineer working at the interface of artificial intelligence
and philosophy. In his work he uses computation to propose new models
for logic, decision, and games. His models are distinctive because
they provide mathematical description of the process, rather than
just the outcome. He is primarily an innovator, mathematical modeler,
polemicist, and consummate gawk programmer.
His undergraduate dissertation (Harvard, 1982), on Optimal Stochastic
Paths, shared the Association for Computing Machinery Undergraduate
Award and continues to have impact on communications and robotics.
His doctoral dissertation (Rochester, 1987) is regarded as the first
attempt at a Mathematics of Argument and was nominated for the
JOURNAL OF PHILOSOPHY dissertation award. This thesis has been
useful in AI and Law but also animates work on decisionmaking, knowledge
representation, discourse interpretation, and planning.
His third major intellectual work (Donostia, 2003; Rochester, 2005;
Urbana and Sorbonne, 2006; PROBABILITY AND INFERENCE, 2007) is a
purely probabilistic model of the Process of Negotiation, which
seeks to turn attention away from Nash's game theoretic concept of
equilibrium.
He recently completed work on a significant national security project with
collaborators in computer networking and datamining, and is co-patentor of
a content-based internet firewall. The results of his GAWK programming
are currently being used around the world by intelligence agencies.
He is best known on the internet as the first person to write in detail
about the superiority of scripting languages ("Why GAWK for AI?", ACM
SIGPLAN, 1995; see also "In Praise of Scripting," IEEE COMPUTER, 2008, to
appear). Between 1992 and 1996, his research group built a legal citation
database and citation search engine called Room5 (ICAIL, 1997).
He has had many outstanding students and research visitors over the
years: his former summer program hire, Scott Hassan left St. Louis for
Stanford to write backrub, the google prototype for Sergey Brin and
Larry Page. Another former student and co-author of An Argument
Game, Bill Chen, is a Berkeley Mathematics Ph.D. and World
Championship caliber poker player. Other notable undergraduate and summer
co-authors include the co-founder of a computer security firm, the water
animator in Riven and The Matrix III, doctorates at Berkeley
and MIT in computer science, a Ph.D. at Stanford in physics, a Rhodes
Scholar from Harvard, and some outstanding writers, filmmakers, and
prosecutors. All three of his doctoral students (Guillermo Simari, Gadi
Pinkas, Moshe Looks) have been nominated for national dissertation awards,
and all of his postdoctoral visitors (Gerard Vreeswijk, Bart Verheij,
Fernando Tohme) have published in AI JOURNAL after visiting.
For two decades, Ronald P. Loui was an Associate Professor of Computer
Science and Engineering at Washington University in St. Louis, where he
started after a year as a Sloan Cognitive Science Fellow (Stanford, 1988).
Philosophical Family Tree from https://webspace.utexas.edu/deverj/personal/philtree/philtree.html (see my list-version):
Leibniz Wolff Knutzen Kant Reinhold Trendelenburg Morris Royce Cohen Nagel Kyburg>> Ron Loui
Some Public Anecdotes about Some Public Persons
Pragmatics Mantra (Part One) for Programmers
Serious Philosophical Quips
Project Management Advice for students in CS436S Software Engineering Workshop
Some Remarks about Henry Kyburg as Advisor,
on the Occasion of his Graduate Education Achievement Award
Notes for Speaker Tweakers -- My DIY Speaker Mods This Year
Cardinals Offensive Production By Player RBIPCT+OBA 2007
July 21, 2008 Google Scholar Biggest Works
And on another topic entirely... (we built hserver long before anyone had heard of facebook!)
Message-Id: <9405262023.AA08461@nwd2sun1.analog.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 16:31:21 EDT
From: XXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX@analog.com>
To: loui@cs.wustl.edu
Subject: Re: let's discuss this!
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 977
Status: RO
Hi Ron,
I now have 19 members of my class on my list. In fairness to them,
I would like to ask them if they want to be part of your directory before
I send you their names. I would like more information about what exactly
you have assembled on hserver so that I can let my classmates know.
I do not anticipate any objections, but I am cautious by nature and do not
want to betray any trust (however little there is) that my e-mail classmates
have in me. All I know about your directory so far is that a classmate
of mine, Dan Rose at Apple Computer, told me that Lynn Stein was assembling
a Harvard/Radcliffe alumni directory. I sent her a note, and she didn't
send anything to me, but she must have forwarded my message to you.
I haven't received any information from you except that there is an
address alumni@harvard.edu that gets forwarded to you in Saint Louis.
...
XXXXX
Dozen things you didn't know about Professor Loui:
- He applied only to colleges Harvard and Yale because he wanted to play full contact, full pad IM football.
- He has been asking his fiancé for a large-diameter bass-head tweneboa djembe drum for four years.
- His favorite movie is The Fountainhead.
- He involuntarily anticipates when clocks in a room are about to read exactly 3:14.
- His first programming language was BASIC (specifically HP2100 time shared BASIC).
- In the past two years, five Cardinals pitchers (Carpenter, Mulder, Isringhausen, Suppan and Hrabosky) have lived in his neighborhood.
- He thinks he just found a signed Harry Clarke etched print among the art he bought years ago in a south city dive. You be the judge.
- His totemic animal is the bottlenose dolphin.
- His dog looks like Audrey Hepburn, see here (and the Chicago Tribune's celebrity lookalike contest).
- His mother graduated from Women's Medical College of Pennsylvania (because Stanford Med did not accept Chinese).
- His childhood teams were the Chicago Cubs, the Green Bay Packers, and the Dallas Cowboys.
- He is NOT a baby boomer.
- (He's the guy who plans to be leading the X- and Y-gens when boomers retire).
This page thanks to Fernando Tohme in Argentina:
Last updated 2/21/09
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